The Power in Motion Podcast

Fertility and Weight Stigma with Nicola Salmon

Kim Hagle with Nicola Salmon Episode 128

"You don’t have to make your body smaller to get pregnant. You are so worthy of getting any help and care you need to reach your goal right now. You're not broken, and you don't need fixing."

In this episode Kim welcomes Nicola Salmon to talk about her journey with fertility and the impact of weight stigma on accessing fertility care. 

The conversation touches on how medical weight stigma impacts fertility outcomes, the flaws in fertility research, and practical steps for larger-bodied individuals to support their reproductive health without dieting or weight loss. 

As an expert  coach for larger-bodied people who want to grow a family, Nicola also delves into her four key areas of focus in her work and offers empowering advice for those on a similar journey.

About Our Guest

Nicola is the leading voice for fat folks seeking fertility support, bringing a unique fat-positive perspective to her work as a fertility coach and author of the groundbreaking book "Fat and Fertile”.

She is a prominent figure in the world of fat activism, using her platform and expertise to challenge the weight bias and stigmas that exist within the fertility industry and empower those who are often marginalised to take control of their reproductive health with confidence and self-assurance.

Through her innovative and evidence-based approach, she helps clients find their own path to wellness, free from diets and body shaming, and encourages them to trust and believe in their ability to conceive. With her expert guidance and compassionate support, Nicola is changing the way people approach fertility.
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Visit Nicola's Website

About the Host

Kim Hagle (she/her)  is a Size Inclusive Fitness Specialist,  Non-Diet Nutritionist,  and certified Health and Life Coach specializing in body image.   

She is passionate about helping women develop a trusting and respectful relationship with their body so they can feel healthy, happy and confident while leaving  food rules, torturous exercise and body dissatisfaction behind and confidently create their best life - right now!

Offering cognitive behavioural coaching and weight neutral personal training, Kim supports her clients to feel their very best, both IN and ABOUT their body.

Want to learn how to support your body without obsessing over the scale?  Register for our FREE mini course. Learn simple, sustainable habits and mindset shifts so you can feel healthy, energetic and confident without rules, deprivation or willpower

Ready to take the next step? Visit our website to learn about how we can work together  

Let’s stay in touch! Kim is on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube and LinkedIn @radiantvitalitywellness.  

Disclaimer.  The information contained in this podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for medical advice.  Always consult a health care professional about your unique needs.

Support the show

Hey friends and welcome back to the Power in Motion podcast. This week we're joined by fellow coach Nicholas Salmon who is is here to talk to us all about weight neutral fertility and the stigma that often comes up to folks in larger bodies as they're navigating the fertility journey. Now, before you click off, if this is not something that you have ever experienced, I encourage you to stick around because I think there's insights in this episode that would be relevant to us all, whether we're parents or not, or whether we have ever struggled with fertility or not. Now let me tell you a little bit about Nicola. Nicola is the leading voice for fat folks seeking fertility support, bringing a unique, fat positive perspective to her work as a fertility coach and author of the groundbreaking book, Fertility and Fertility. fat and fertile. She's a prominent figure in the world of fat activism, using her platform and expertise to challenge the weight bias and stigmas that exist within the fertility industry, and empower those who are often marginalized to take control of their reproductive health with confidence and self assurance. Through her innovative and evidence based approach, she helps clients find their own path to wellness, free from diets and body shaming, and encourages them to trust and believe in their ability to conceive. With her expert guidance and compassionate support, Nicola is changing the way people approach fertility. And in this episode, we talked about all of those things. We talked about how weight bias and stigma Um, so I'm going to talk a little bit about what affects folks in larger bodies in both trying to access fertility care and in the risks and so called complications that are often assigned to folks in larger bodies. Nicola is a researcher at heart, so she has really dug into all of the studies that have been done around fertility and especially around weight and fertility and she clears up a lot of those myths. and misconceptions and talks about the flaws in some of these studies, which really boils down to people in larger bodies often being left out. So the data just simply doesn't exist. Nicola's approach is so compassionate and so unique and inside this episode she shares her four step process on how folks who exist in larger bodies can support themselves to get the fertility care that they need and to start growing their family right now, if that's what they desire. It's a really empowering, heart touching episode. I learned a lot myself and I know that you'll find it informative and enlightening, so please enjoy.

Kim:

Hey Nicola. Welcome to the Power in Motion podcast. I'm so thrilled to have you here today to talk about fertility and how weight stigma enters into that and what folks can do if they're on that journey. So welcome.

Nicola:

Thank you. And thank you so much for thinking of me. I am so glad that we get to reconnect.

Kim:

Oh, me too. Me too. Yeah. Nicola and I go way back. We were in a mastermind together for, um, weight neutral health professionals. So it's been a while since we chatted, but I'm really glad to reconnect too. one thing I have noticed in doing this show and speaking to lots of people is that generally speaking, we all have a personal experience that leads us to doing the kind of work that we're doing and you're nodding your head. Would you, would you tell us a little bit about your journey that brought you to be doing the work that you do now?

Nicola:

Oh, absolutely. And I think you're right. It's so true. It's just, it's really what connects you to the work, isn't it? So for me, it goes way back. So this was over 20 years ago now. I was Diagnosed with a condition called polycystic ovarian syndrome, or PCOS. Now, it's quite common to hear it talked about now, like, it's a condition that affects a lot of people. But back when I was like 16 years old, we didn't really have the internet, we didn't have many resources, so I didn't really know what it was. All I had was the information that the doctor gave me, and that was that. It was like a hormonal and metabolic condition that I'd need to lose weight in order to, like, manage it. Um, to regulate my menstrual cycles, which was the main symptom I had, was just to go on the pill, so the oral contraceptive pill, and also I wouldn't be able to get pregnant. So, a lot of information, not a lot of helpful information to help me navigate that at quite a, you know, a young age, a tender age to be told big news like that. Um, so, yeah, I kind of grew up. With this idea that my body was broken, like, there was something wrong with me. I had to make my body smaller in order to make it better or to fix it in some way. And also that, you know, I would likely never become a parent. And because of that diagnosis, because of that condition, I grew up with a massive interest in fertility and hormones in menstrual cycles, um, which led me to actually becoming a qualified like fertility acupuncturist, which was kind of my route into the fertility world. So that was in my like mid 20s that I was doing that work and I, it was only then that I really learned that what the doctor said was actually a load of rubbish, like, just because you're diagnosed with PCOS that doesn't mean that you can't get pregnant. Obviously it impacts things like ovulation, it impacts the length of your menstrual cycles, it can impact other things too, but it's definitely not a, oh, this means you're never going to be able to get pregnant. And actually for me, When I met my husband and we were starting to try to think about having a family, um, we got pregnant really easily. And that for me was a big like, whoa moment because I was in a big body still. I, you know, I was still within diet culture at that time. So I'd already told myself that I had to lose weight before I could get pregnant. And that was kind of what I was gearing myself up for. Um, but I had really long, regular cycles. Like I hadn't, um, Quote unquote, fixed by PCOS. And still, we got pregnant. And so that, for me, was this big seed that I planted of like, well, why, why did they tell me that? Why did I spend all this time thinking that was going to be a problem? And, you know, I'm still fat, so, so how is this, you know, how is this a thing? How did I get pregnant? And it was when I was pregnant with my first child that I really started to understand what advocacy meant because I was, you know, treated quite negatively. I was labeled high risk during that pregnancy. I was told I couldn't have the birth choices I wanted to have. So. I really had to like dig deep and really like do a lot of research and advocate for myself to have kind of the choices that I wanted and to, you know, not scale myself to death through the whole thing because actually a lot of the research is sensationalized. A lot of it isn't based in any like current evidence bases. And so the more I kind of dived into it, the more I was like, well, this doesn't make any sense. Like, why was I told this and why are we led to believe this? So that is really what planted the seeds for me. So alongside kind of my own education, when I decided to quit dieting, I was like coming to terms with like the fact that the fertility industry is so problematic when it comes to telling people to lose weight, telling people to diet and realizing, you know, how much harm I've done in that process of. Supporting folks with fertility. So It was a long kind of time getting there and it's taken me a long time to, yeah, and learn a lot of the stuff that I learned when I was training and figure out, you know, what it means to me, but yeah, I'm very glad that I'm where I'm at now in terms of both like growing my family and also kind of the work that I get to do and learning more about like how problematic not only the healthcare industry is, but the fertility industry in particular. Yeah.

Kim:

Yeah, and I'm sure that the folks out there that are walking a similar path to what you walked are very grateful too that you're doing this work and showing them that there's another option, right? Because I think so many are told the same things that you were told. And this is something we've been exploring with lots of guests here on the show lately about medical weight stigma and I'd love to hear your opinion. Like, why do you think this is just the default? Like, you must lose weight. It's because of your size that you're having these problems and you must lose weight in this situation before you get pregnant. Why do you think that happens?

Nicola:

Oh, it's such a big question. And I don't think I know one right answer. Like, I think that it's just like, I think doctors and healthcare providers, like, they all go into the field wanting to do the best for people, right? I think I really, truly believe that they really think they're doing their best for them. But I think that the, the fact that we believe that that is so deeply rooted within like our culture, our society. From so many different directions that it's, I feel like it takes a real active. participation with healthcare providers to begin to dismantle some of that. So obviously there's kind of the roots of racism and the roots of colonialism and religion. There's so many different things that have influenced and shaped the way that we feel about our bodies and about food and about, um, like how we talk about all of those things. And I think it's just so unfortunate that the medical system is still you know, really rooted in patriarchy, really got so many kind of racist roots to it that, you know, until we can really explore that and analyze it for what it is, like, you can't almost take it out of those roots. It's so impossible to, like, like, figure out and dismantle all of the different parts and where they come from. Like, especially gynecology, like there is so much racism in gynecology, a lot of like the, I think it is the, what they call like the father of modern gynecology, I don't remember their name, but they did so many like experiments on black women without their consent, without, you know, proper pain control, and so much of our like current understanding around gynecology and around fertility is, is based on that premise and that practice and it's, It's abhorrent. It means that so many black people within, you know, both the UK where I'm from and the US, you know, in Canada, in North America, like, experience so much poorer care and, you know, increased mortality rates through gynecology and birth and fertility. Um, it's a, it's a wild, a wild space to be in. But yeah. I don't, until we make big changes, it's hard to know, like, where do we go from here? And that's

Kim:

just it. And I think your answer highlights just how complex and nuanced this all is. Like, it doesn't boil down to one simple bit of misinformation, right? Like, there's so much impacting this conversation. So, in your research, as you started to learn more about fertility, What did you find out? Like, is there any truth to the things you were being told that being in a larger body makes it harder to get pregnant or puts you at higher risk? Like, what's the truth?

Nicola:

Hmm. And I think it's, the truth is, again, it's complicated and nuanced, but the best way that I can explain it is that so much of the science and the evidence that underpins How we practice fertility care, how doctors practice support in helping people get pregnant. It is done by researchers who are also in this diet culture soup, who are also influenced by the history, but also the current climate, where so many, um, pharmaceutical companies are promoting weight loss because they sell, you know, the meds, like, this is so prevalent right now. And they, um, Doing their research with the underlying foundation and bias of fat equals barats Therefore, you know, this is going to like be the lens on which I see the results of this research So when I go back and look at that research now with a weight neutral lens kind of as the way that I see it I can see such big flaws in how they talk about these things and the decisions they're making about the experiments and about how they're like sharing that information with the world because we know we live in a world where it's all about like the highlights right like it's the it's the headlines it's that's what we take away from a lot of the research and For example, like, one fact or myth that's kind of well documented in the fertility world is that it takes fat folks longer to get pregnant. Now the research that I've based on is, there's like, maybe like two studies that show this. And the time that it takes that they found in those studies is like two to three months longer, like it is not a big deal, but also like none of that research takes into account how fat folks are treated, so the weight stigma that they face when they go to the doctor, the fact that they, might not even want to go to their doctor because of nervous experiences they've had in the past. The fact that their doctor will turn them away and say, Oh, come back in, you know, when you've lost this weight, and they don't get the appropriate tests, the appropriate treatment to see if there's anything else underlying going on. The fact that, you know, tests that treatments are built and designed around thin people's bodies. So when a fat person wants to access fertility care or fertility treatments, It's not built for their body, so they have a different response to it. They may need a higher dose of drugs. They may need, um, you know, a longer time to go through that process. But because we're assuming that a thin person is the norm, when fat people are going through those processes and those treatments and they respond differently, we're seeing that as that they're the problem, not that that hasn't been designed for them. So it's, There's so many layers to it, but at the end of the day, it's really just the fact that all of the research really points to, it's, that we, we haven't been considered, we haven't been thought about when these processes, these designs, these things are thinking about, and we, um, are, yeah, our experiences are never considered. We just, we're not thought about in that way. And back to that, we've probably been on diets in our, you know, in our past again, never considered it's never thought about the impact of that. And when we look at medicine across kind of a bigger, broader picture, we see that these kind of risks are increased by a similar amount across all the different like modalities. And actually what would perfectly explain that is just the weight stigma and the weight bias that fat folks face when they're trying to access any form of health care. Mm

Kim:

hmm.

Nicola:

Mm hmm.

Kim:

Yeah. And. Yeah, and I agree, like, I think a large part of the risk in quotes that they assign to folks in a larger weight or higher weight comes from the fact that they tend not to access medical care because of the way that they're treated, right? So they don't have the same level of care as someone in a smaller body, because they're afraid of how they're going to be spoken to, right? So I think that elevates the risk right there.

Nicola:

Absolutely. And we know that. You know, if they're thinking and worrying about that, you know, that could impact their stress response, you know, that will increase the levels of stress in their body. We know that things like increased adrenaline and cortisol can impact hormones. We know it can impact so many different functions of the body. So it's, there's a hundred different ways that you can see that actually the way that we're treated as fat folks. Can impact, you know, can have an impact on the risk of different things occurring.

Kim:

Yeah, it's so complex, like there's so many layers.

Nicola:

So many pieces to the puzzle and it's, you know, there's no studies that will look at this stuff because there is no funding like. There's nobody who, you know, there's no big weight neutral companies that are wanting to fund this kind of research, if only. Well, that doesn't,

Kim:

that's not profitable, right? Like, I'm sure, you know, the diet industry wants to make money and I'm sure they're involved in fertility care in some way too, right? Like, at the end of the day, it's who's making money off of this.

Nicola:

Yeah. Oh my God. If you look up, like, if you Google fertility diet, there is so much rubbish out there.

Kim:

Really?

Nicola:

There's so many people making such a lot of money. Even like one of the biggest clinics in America, their director, so their founder has a diet book about keto.

Kim:

Wow. Yeah. Like while, while you're trying to conceive.

Nicola:

Like, yeah, for IVF people, for people going through IVF, like, they're recommending keto and keto, you know, I think it's, what, it was designed for epileptic children, like, that's the only Originally,

Kim:

but now everybody should be on it, apparently.

Nicola:

Yeah, but it's, there's no research, no evidence, there's no, you know, nothing to support it. Yet, you know, we have these people who are, you know, really influential within like the fertility and the IVF spaces in the US and they are actively promoting, you know, really harmful non evidence based diets for folks.

Kim:

Yeah, and that was going to be my next question is like, is there any evidence that following a keto diet improves your chance of getting pregnant? Of course not.

Nicola:

You'll be surprised or not that there is no evidence to support any form of intentional weight loss. And in fact, there's a really, there's a couple of really good studies that have come out over the past couple of years that show weight loss, dieting, any form of like lifestyle intervention has absolutely no impact on fertility outcomes.

Kim:

Interesting. Can you just say that again for the people in the back?

Nicola:

It doesn't work.

Kim:

Wow. Okay. So Where it's being told to lose weight and yet there's nothing that shows that doing so will improve your chances.

Nicola:

Yeah, and these are like big, like thousands and thousands of studies, like people in these studies, like really good studies, really good quality, and there's just no, no, like evidence to support that these help. Yeah, you know, we know that that's not going to filter through for a long time, but people are being impacted today. by the decisions that doctors, healthcare providers, fertility doctors and specialists are making.

Kim:

And that's the sad part is it doesn't filter through, right? Like, in not just infertility, but in so many areas of health, people are told you have to lose weight to get better. And then there's like, across the board, there's not a lot of evidence that losing weight improves whatever the health condition is, but that's not the part they're sharing, right? Just you have to lose weight.

Nicola:

Yeah, it's, it's like a judgment, right? Like, we still have. As a culture it's accepted that we can judge people based on their body size and we, we assume that it's their fault. We like we make so many assumptions and so many judgments on people. And actually, you know, if we If we could just let that go and just accept that we're all human, we all deserve as much care and support in whatever healthcare field that we need. And there should be enough for everybody, right? Like, you know, there should be access to healthcare, that should be a basic human right for everybody to get the healthcare they needed. Um, then I think it would be a much better place. Absolutely.

Kim:

Yeah, I feel like there's a pervasive belief that being in a larger body is a personal choice and that you've, you've done this to yourself, right? And if you want to choose to get pregnant, then you got to choose to get thin. And like, none of that's true, right? Like, and even if it were a choice, like it should be a fully acceptable choice to make.

Nicola:

Absolutely. Like it should be a choice, right? But at the moment, people don't have that choice. People in bigger bodies don't have the option to get fertility care that they need, like, because there are so many BMI barriers around accessing, like, things like IVF. And for some folks, they don't have any other options, like, if they've got specific health care conditions, or if they're with a partner that has specific health care conditions, sometimes, like, that is their only option. And if you have BMI restrictions around that, then they're left with nothing. Like, they can either travel, you know, hundreds of miles to find a clinic that will help them. Or they have to kind of go through, you know, really. Often, you know, difficult weight loss strategies to try and figure out how they're going to lose the weight to be able to work with a clinic closer to them. Um, and that's if they've got the money available, because again, this stuff is really expensive and so much of it is covered on insurance or, you know, we have the NHS but again, like it's, there is a very poor provision in terms of care for, you know, even for people without BMI restrictions, like there are still, it's still very limited.

Kim:

Gotcha. Okay, so all of this can leave a person feeling pretty hopeless and disempowered. Where does someone like you come in? How do you empower the folks that you work with to take control of their reproductive health and get the care that they need and hopefully get the results that they want?

Nicola:

So there's a few ways that I like to work with folks and I've done this for, I think, 2024, six years now. So I spent, I've worked with a lot of people trying to figure out exactly what's going to help. And I kind of narrowed it down to like four main areas. So the first is really looking at how can you support your health without weight loss and diets? Because so many of us. We don't know what that looks like because all of our quote unquote health adventures through life have always been with the sole purpose of making our bodies smaller. So it's about looking at, you know, what can we do? That's going to be helpful. That's not going to involve restriction, not going to involve dieting, like how can we take care of our bodies? without, you know, diet culture breathing down on it. The next is around advocacy. So really helping folks figure out what kind of healthcare team they need, what support they need, how they can access that, you know, looking at their options, where they live and what they're doing so that they can really get the support that they need. The next one is around trust. So really for so many folks in bigger bodies, and especially through fertility stuff, they have this. underlying sense that their body is broken and it's not working for them and it is, you know, never going to do the thing that they really wanted to do. So it's about really rebuilding that relationship and that trust with their body so they could be worth working together on the same page. And then we do a lot of work around beliefs. So around, believing that their body is capable of this because we have been absolutely conditioned to believe that our body will, you know, will not be able to do this. It will never do this. It's impossible for us. So helping people rewire that part of their brain to really believe that their body is capable of this can be a really powerful way to help them not only day to day, but to access care and to advocate themselves. Because if you don't believe that you deserve this care, then it's really hard for us to advocate for it. So, It's lots of different parts of the puzzle, putting them together alongside a good dollop of like research and evidence to really help people build those evidence banks that they are capable and that the evidence supports that, um, just to give them all the tools that they need to navigate this.

Kim:

Yeah. I love that. I love that. That's, uh, I really appreciate you breaking down your process and I love how there's such a strong focus on trusting yourself and believing in your body, right? And then, and looking for evidence that contradicts all the things that they've been told. That's a really powerful approach. So what's a first step someone might be able to take if they're in this situation and feeling very hopeless and not sure what to do? Where can they start?

Nicola:

So the first thing that I often recommend folks work on is giving themselves permission. So for so many people, we give ourselves this like, Oh, well, I can't do this until I've lost weight. I can't do this until I'm in a smaller body. And I would love to invite people to give themselves permission to try now to not wait longer, to not put it off, to not. you know, believe that they don't deserve this. Like I 100 percent believe if you are listening to this, you absolutely deserve everything that you need in order to get pregnant and to grow your family. And I would love for you just to give yourself that little bit of permission to go, maybe it's okay that I do this now. Maybe I don't have to wait until I've gone and tried another diet or done another thing or made my body smaller. Like maybe it's okay.

Kim:

Oh, that like that hit me right in the heart. Because I can see how someone would start to believe that they don't deserve to have the family that they, they want to have and the desires that are on their heart, right? Absolutely. Yeah, that is such a powerful statement. Tell us a little bit about your book. You have a book that you published called Fat and Fertile. Tell us a little bit about, um, what's in it and what people can gain from reading it.

Nicola:

So, I wrote it about four years ago now, and I really, I was just so sick of there not being any books out there for fat folks. Every, every fertility book out there, all we are is a little side note saying, that you need to be a quote unquote healthy weight if you want to get pregnant. So if your BMI is over this then you need to lose weight. And it just felt so sad to me that our whole experience as folks in bigger bodies was just summed up by a small paragraph of You're wrong, your body is wrong, you need to lose weight, just affirming all of this rubbish, which, you know, the doctors tell us. So, it was, it felt really important for me to make something that was accessible to people. And so I wrote a book, and it is self published, it is something that's very much a labour of love. It is very, um, rough around the edges, shall we say. It would, I would love to give it another good edit, I would love to have a little time to rewrite it. But, for me It was so much more important to have something out there for people to be able to have something that mirrors their experience, that speaks to them, that, you know, can empower them to, to actually feel like they're not alone, because so often we don't talk about this stuff and so often, especially for fat folks navigating this, you don't want to share it because you're worried that people will judge you or shame you or make you feel bad for even wanting to have a family. So it's, I kind of described it as like a hug in a book, it is lots of my experiences, lots of the coaching techniques that I use, some of the research that I had back then, obviously I've got so much more of it now, but, um, it was really just a starting point for folks to be able to realize that they, you know, there are other people navigating this, validating their, you know, experiences. just something for them to be able to hold on to in those moments where it felt hopeless, they felt there was nobody that understood them, nobody knew what they were going through, and that they were all alone. And I've had some really, really lovely feedback on it, like some, you know, people, um, Saying that, you know, not only that it helped them, but you know, that, that it helped them grow the family that they wanted. So it, it was definitely a worthwhile investment of my time, even though I'd love to do so much more with it. It is, yeah, definitely. You

Kim:

know what, they always say done is better than perfect. Right. And

Nicola:

you

Kim:

know, as our coach always says, you can't hold yourself back like waiting to have everything polished and perfect. You have something valuable to offer into the world. So get it out there. Right? Like,

Nicola:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I can't agree more with that. I feel, and I feel for, you know, for everybody who's working through this, like fertility stuff, we have this such a high expectation that we put on ourselves, right? Of doing things perfectly, of the right supplements, the right nutrition, the right movement. Like, All of this needs to be perfect. And, you know, your future baby doesn't care about you doing it perfectly. They just want you to look after yourself. And I think. I take that into every area of my life, no matter what it is, you know, so far beyond my work is just like trying, just trying things and seeing how they work and doing a little bit like every tiny step is valuable and useful. Um, even if you don't do it forever, like it doesn't matter, like it still counts.

Kim:

For sure. 100%. Right. And once you become a parent, you realize that there is no perfection.

Nicola:

Perfection goes out the window. It's

Kim:

always doing your best and rejigging things and learning and growing and you know, so yeah. Okay. So as we wrap up, is there. Anything you, Final, that you want to say, what would you want someone who's on this journey of struggling with fertility, what would you want them to know?

Nicola:

I think the most important thing that I'd want them to know is that they're not alone, that there are other people who are going through this, even if you never find them talking about it on forums or on the internet, there are other people navigating these exact same things, and, you know, your experiences are totally valid. And that it's so understandable that you're, you know, you're experiencing it this way and you're feeling the way that you are. But that you don't have to make your body smaller in order to get pregnant. And that you are so worthy of getting any help and care that you need in order to reach that goal right now. Like, you're not broken. You don't need fixing. There's nothing that you need to change. Right now.

Kim:

I love that. I love that. Okay. I know that our listeners are going to get so much value out of this episode and they're going to want to follow along with you and your work. So where can everybody connect with you and keep in touch?

Nicola:

So I'm mainly on Instagram and my handle is fat positive fertility. So you can find me there. Um, I also share kind of all the resources and things that I have on my website, which is nicolasalmon. co. uk.

Kim:

Wonderful. Nicola, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show today and share your wisdom about fertility and, and weight stigma in this field. And I know it's going to just be so valuable for those who are listening. So thank you.

Nicola:

Thank you so much for having me Kim. It's been such a joy.

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