BONUS: Feel Great In and About Your Body, Even with Fibromyalgia (replay from The Fibromyalgia Podcast)

Welcome to this bonus episode of The Power in Motion Podcast.

In this episode, I’m sharing a recent interview I did with Tami Stackelhouse on her podcast, The Fibromyalgia podcast.

I discovered Tami and her work as I was looking for resources to support myself through my own recent diagnosis of fibromyalgia and I can honestly say her podcast has made a huge impact - I’ve learned so much about the condition and what I can do to feel better.  

So It was truly an honour when Tami asked me to come and speak on her podcast about my fibro journey so far and how my work and fitness routine has had to shift as a result. 

We also discuss diet culture, movement as self care, other ways we can measure health progress, besides the number on the scale, and how we can develop a more positive body image.

Tami was also on my show recently - back on episode 124, where we talked all about how we can come into a friendly and accepting relationship with our body even with chronic illness.  You can find that episode here.

About Tami Stackelhouse

Tami Stackelhouse is doing all she can to give fibromyalgia patients the knowledge, care, and support they need to thrive. A fibromyalgia patient herself, Tami has gone from disabled to having her fibromyalgia in remission. For more than a decade, her compassion, gentle support, and fun coaching style have helped fibromyalgia patients all over the world take back control of their lives. She is the executive producer of the fibromyalgia documentary, INVISIBLE, and founder of the International Fibromyalgia Coaching Institute, where she teaches her Certified Fibromyalgia Coach® training program. You will find Tami sharing her joy and expertise on her Fibromyalgia Podcast® and through her award-winning books, "Take Back Your Life" and "The Fibromyalgia Coach".
Instagram.com/fibrocoach
Facebook.com/fibrocoach
FibroQuiz.com
TakeBackYourLifeBook.com

About the Host

Kim Hagle (she/her)  is a Size Inclusive Fitness Specialist,  Non-Diet Nutritionist,  and certified Health and Life Coach specializing in body image.   

She is passionate about helping women develop a trusting and respectful relationship with their body so they can feel healthy, happy and confident while leaving  food rules, torturous exercise and body dissatisfaction behind and confidently create their best life - right now!

Offering cognitive behavioural coaching and weight neutral personal training, Kim supports her clients to feel their very best, both IN and ABOUT their body.

Want to learn how to support your body without obsessing over the scale?  Register for our FREE mini course. Learn simple, sustainable habits and mindset shifts so you can feel healthy, energetic and confident without rules, deprivation or willpower

Ready to take the next step? Visit our website to learn about how we can work together  

Let’s stay in touch! Kim is on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube and LinkedIn @radiantvitalitywellness.  

Disclaimer.  The information contained in this podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for medical advice.  Always consult a health care professional about your unique needs.

Transcript

0:47

Hey, and welcome to this bonus episode of the Power in Motion podcast. On this episode, I'm sharing a recent interview I did with Tammy Stackelhaus on her podcast, the Fibromyalgia podcast. I discovered Tammy and her work as I was looking for resources to support myself through my own recent diagnosis of fibromyalgia, and I can honestly say Say her podcast has made a huge impact on my life. I've learned so much about my condition and what I can do to feel better. So it was truly an honor when Tammy asked me to come and speak on her podcast about my fibro journey so far. Tammy was also recently on my show, you might remember, back on episode 124, where we talked all about how we can come into a friendly and accepting relationship with our body, even with chronic illness. And you can find that episode, back in your app on episode number 124. So let's get right into this episode. I hope that you enjoy. Welcome to the fibromyalgia podcast. I'm your coach, Tammy Stackelhaus, and this is episode 100. Today, I'm talking with Kim Hagel, a size inclusive fitness specialist, non diet nutritionist, and a certified health and life coach specializing in body image. She was also diagnosed with fibromyalgia just six months ago. Kim shares about her diagnosis, how her work and fitness routine has had to shift as a result. We also discuss diet culture, movement as self care, other ways we can measure health progress, besides the number on the scale, and how we can develop a more helpful body image. In one of last month's bonus episodes, Kim interviewed me for her show, The power in motion podcast. If you haven't heard that yet, just scroll back in your podcast app. And you'll find that posted on May 21st. I'm excited to be able to return the honor and interview Kim about her work here on the fibromyalgia podcast. Now, let me introduce you officially. To today's guest, Kim Hagel is a size inclusive fitness specialist. She's a non diet nutritionist and a certified health and life coach specializing in body image. She is passionate about helping women develop a trusting and respectful relationship with their bodies so they can feel healthy, happy, and confident while leaving food rules. Tortuous exercise and body dissatisfaction behind and confidently create their best life. Right now, Kim hosts the Power In Motion Podcast where she inspires women to think differently about food movement health. And their bodies so that they can focus on feeling good in and about the body they have today. I love Kim's podcast. And what she teaches is a great addition to what you learn from me here. Now, make sure you keep listening after the interview for some additional. additional resources. There were several other episodes that came to mind as we talked, as well as some tracking tools and resources that can help you implement the things we share in today's episode. And as always, the information that you hear in this podcast is not meant to be considered medical advice, nor is it intended to replace consulting with a qualified physician or other healthcare provider. Now, here's my interview with Kim. Hi Kim, welcome. I've been so excited to interview you on the podcast. Oh, thanks so much for having me. I've been excited too. I'm a big fan of your work. So it's an honor to be here. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so much. And I think The reason you're a fan is a great place to start. Now you were diagnosed with fibromyalgia just at the end of last year, right? So it's only been what, six months or so? About six months. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. And hearing how far you've come in that six months, I think. Is going to be an inspiration to people a little bit because I talk about mine being in remission. I was diagnosed 15 years ago and nobody wants to wait 15 years, but six months is something we can wrap our brains around. Yeah. So I'd love for you to just share a little bit of your story for folks. Sure. Yeah. So I was diagnosed about six months ago, but I think if I'm looking back and being honest, I probably have had symptoms of fibromyalgia for at least three years, maybe even a little bit longer. So I am a size inclusive fitness specialist. I'm a personal trainer. I've been working in the fitness industry for about. 13 or 14 years. I'm also a non diet nutritionist and a body image coach. I haven't always been the non diet size inclusive practitioner that I am now. I started out in this industry back 13 years ago, very much entrenched in diet culture and trying to help people lose weight and have success with changing their bodies. through movement and dietary habits. And that didn't really work very well. I never felt like I was very good at my job because either people couldn't attain the goals that they had set out for themselves or they didn't last long. It didn't work for me either in the long term. I worked myself into a disordered eating and exercise habits to try to maintain this facade that I was putting out there into the world. And eventually I cracked, I just couldn't do it anymore. Life happened in a big way and I just was like, I cannot keep up the level of perfection that's required to maintain this body that everybody thinks is such an inspiration. So that happened and I was happy with that. Like I quit dieting, I quit overexercising and it was honestly the best decision I'd ever made in my life. But with that came some weight gain and I had not yet really addressed the internalized fat phobia that I had and all the diet culture that was at play inside of me and my own body image. So I actually felt like I didn't belong in the fitness industry anymore. I can't. work as a role model in this industry, if I can't maintain the physique that everybody associates with a fit body. So I quit for a couple of years and I went off and I did other things. And it was during that time that I healed my body image. I worked with a coach and I learned a lot about diet culture. And I started learning about intuitive eating and I learned how to move my body without it being about. Yeah. Changing my body or losing weight, but rather a way to care for my body. And it was through that whole journey that brought me back to working in the fitness industry, but from this size, inclusive, weight, neutral perspective. And so that's how I've been working for about the last five years. And. Like I say, just in the last little while, I've realized that I have fibromyalgia. The way that I started to notice that something wasn't right is I'm a very active person. I'm a fitness professional. And I was noticing that I just, I hurt all the time. Like I was a runner for many years and I could not run without pain, even like lifting weights. And there was seemed to be this threshold with movement that I could not cross. And if I did, I would be sore for a week and it wasn't just the usual muscle soreness, right? That I would normally coach my people on is, yeah, you work hard. You're going to feel it the next day. That's normal. It wasn't normal. And I just felt my fitness level deteriorating slowly. Like I was doing less and less. And I tried all the usual things that I, I know to do to try to get my fitness back, but any attempts I made to try to be a little bit more consistent or bump up my efforts a little bit, and I had just crashed and I'd be so sore. I was exhausted all the time. I was forgetting things like I just, I was suffering with anxiety and depression and I started putting the pieces together. And then I was like, I think maybe I have fibromyalgia. This just isn't normal, right? I was being treated for the mental health and I was being treated for my sleep. But this movement piece, I just, I didn't want to acknowledge that there was something wrong. And I had a lot of unhelpful beliefs, I guess I would say, about fibromyalgia and what it meant to have that diagnosis. And I didn't want to admit that was what was going on with me. So I fought it as long as I could. And then I was like, this is just what it is. And I need to see somebody and I need to get help. So that's what led me to go and get that diagnosis in, in December. And fortunately I've responded very well to medication. So I have been feeling a whole lot better and I've been able to get back to moving consistently and lifting weights again. I'm feeling a lot stronger and better in my body. And as a result, like feeling a lot better mentally and sleeping better too. So. There's my story. It's so interesting that you mentioned that because I think what you described there about being a wall or a point where if you do more than that, then it's a disaster. And I think every single person listening can relate to that. I know years and years before I was ever diagnosed, I would start going to the gym and I do great for a week or two. And then I would end up sick. I would end up like, And every single time I would end up with a cold, with a flu, just something every single time. And now knowing that I have fibromyalgia, all that makes sense. Yeah, of course. Oh goodness. So what did you do during that time with your physical activity? How did you, did you just stop? Did you lower what you were doing? Did you change the activities? How did you handle that? I fought it for a long time, like before getting the diagnosis, I kept trying to push through, I kept trying to modify things and just find stuff that worked and, like I said, it wasn't getting me anywhere. But once I finally had the diagnosis and once I like, Accepted that's what I had and dealt with the grief and the betrayal that I felt there was a lot of hurt feelings. But once I like reached the place of acceptance, I was like, okay, like my body needs me to listen and offer it a whole lot of grace and compassion. So yeah, I just took a full stop for quite a while. I stopped teaching fitness classes. Actually, probably last November, like I, I was even before the diagnosis where I thought I just can't keep up this pace, stopped doing that. And then over December, January, February, I really didn't do anything. I walked a little bit and just really focused on rest. Like I, I realized that my body was so rest deprived. And so I just honored that need and I rested as much. Just, I felt like I needed to, and I didn't really engage with movement again until I felt like I was ready until I felt my body saying, okay, you've got some energy, let's go try. And that's something I teach my clients. And I have been for years. It's like our body is able to communicate with us the type of movement that it wants and the intensity that it wants. So I had that foundation already and I trusted myself to just take a break and your body will let you know when it's ready for more. And it did. And yeah, took about three months. That's awesome. That's awesome. It's most people don't come into this with training that knowledge, that understanding of themselves. And I think a lot of people who are listening right now are in a place of either feeling, I can't stop because if I do stop, I'll gain weight, I'll lose muscle, I'll be deconditioned, and then I'll be worse off. Or we've got people who are resting and thinking, I can't start up again because every time I do, it's a disaster. Yes, yes. There's so much there. There's so many beliefs, right? Like the first part of that, that you said, we're worried about gaining weight, we're worried about losing muscle, we're worried about getting deconditioned. And those things can happen. And that brings me to the body image side of my work is that we don't always like how our body looks. We don't always like what our body can do. We have negative feelings about our body, but that doesn't mean that our body is not worthy of respect. We can still treat ourselves with kindness and respect and meet ourselves where we're at. Even if we don't love what we see in the mirror, even if we don't love how our body performs, right. And if your body is asking for rest, to me, that trumps. It's the worry about weight gain or what's going to happen to our muscle mass. You can always worry about the muscle and the conditioning later on, but rest is what you need. And you won't make progress with the muscle mass or the conditioning anyways, if you're tired. Exactly. Sometimes it helps to put things in a little bit different perspective. So I tell my clients a lot, I'm like, if you broke your foot, if you broke your leg, right? Like you would need to stay off of it. Or you might end up with a worse problem, right? Like it might heal wrong or have complications or whatever. And your body is saying, get off me. Take a break. Yeah. Yeah. And then that secondary fear that you mentioned about getting started because every time you have started, it's hurt. That's a very real and justified fear, right? I totally get that if your experience has always been like moving my body causes pain, of course, your nervous system is going to be a little sensitized to that and be a little weary of getting started again, but Is it possible that maybe you did too much too fast? Like most of us are guilty of that. There's so much all or nothing thinking in fitness that it stands to reason that you probably just took on a little too much at the beginning. So is there a way that you can take a more gentle, slow approach to getting started this time around? Absolutely. And I really feel like people are not trained in how we need to move with fibromyalgia, right? So you go to your regular fitness person and you're just getting started, right? Maybe follow couch to 5k or something like that's designed for normal bodies. And it is not the advice that we need. at all. We have to start so much smaller, increase so much more slowly. We need to not go at these intense levels. There is a sweet spot there. And I think that education piece can really help a lot of people. You just haven't been taught how to properly do it. Do this with fibromyalgia and that's okay. And I would argue that a lot of those programs and advice for the general public even is too much for the average beginner. Right. And still we're taught to believe that this is the right way and you follow this program and this is how you get results. But there's so much all or nothing thinking with fitness, right? Like you have to do this many days a week and it has to be this hard and it has to be this long. And if you didn't sweat, it didn't count. And if you didn't do weights and you didn't do cardio, like it's. There's so many rules and it can lead us to think that doing something less doesn't count or why bother wasn't worth it. And the problem with all or nothing is that the all part, the bar is set so high, like the level of perfection is so high that most of us, even those who have a perfectly functioning body can't achieve this level of perfection. So then we're left with, why would I bother? I teach my clients a minimum baseline approach or what I like to call all or something, right? Like it doesn't have to be all, but it can be something. And Every tiny little bit of movement counts, but we have to shift our thinking around movement as a way to pay for what we've eaten or earn food or shrink our body to rather movement as a way to care for my body. And to feel the way that I want to feel in my body and that allows us then to take tiny little doses of movement and see that it does count, see that it is beneficial for us. Like even if I take right now and straighten up my posture and sit taller in my chair, that's a tiny dose of movement, but it benefited me because I feel better how I'm sitting here. I take a moment and stretch out my shoulders. It benefits me, right? So tiny little bits of movement can give us big results down the line. We just have to stop seeing it as not mattering, not counting because it's so small, but those small pieces built up over time consistently pay off. In dividends. Yes. Yes, I agree with that. 100%. Just this last week, I was teaching my advisor class and we were talking about exercise. And one of the things that I try to make sure that everybody understands is that exercise, particularly like aerobic exercise. Is really in the eyes of your body, like it's what your body says it is. And I have had clients that wearing a fitness track or wearing a heart monitor, it was an aerobic activity to do the dishes. It was an aerobic activity to sit and knit. And so like somebody who is looking at their heart rate and saying, Oh my goodness, I'm in the aerobic zone sitting here knitting. She does not need to go like. Run or no, and then you wonder why you're flared up. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, if your body is telling you that knitting is a workout Then obviously going out for a long walk or a run or a weightlifting workout is going to make you hurt. Body's not ready for that. You're not conditioned for that. That's right. That's right. And I, the word exercise itself is even so loaded, right? Like exercise just has such a very narrow definition. It has to take place in a gym and you have to use weights or get on a treadmill or a piece of cardio equipment, take an aerobics class. That's what we see as exercise. But when we can shift it to movement, then there's a whole lot more available to us. Walking the dog or cleaning your bathroom, mopping the floors. It's like washing the dishes, knitting, like anything that gets your body moving and brings your heart rate up a little bit or improves your mobility or your strength or stamina. It's all movement and it all counts. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I love, you said earlier, actually before we started recording talking about movement as self care. And I love that, right? Because our bodies want to move. We were made to move. Absolutely. Movement might be a challenge right now, but that doesn't mean that you can't. And in my brain, I'm thinking about, Oh, what about some of those people with various disabilities? We've got the Special Olympics, right? Bodies are made to move. There is movement that is accessible to everyone at any level of ability, right? There is some form of movement that is accessible for you. And yeah, as a form of self care, right? When we think about that, like, some people say motion is the lotion, right? Like movement is for our body to feel better and function the best it possibly can with the limitations and things that we have going on. But yeah, like we are so conditioned to think that movement is a way to shrink our bodies and burn calories. And that's really not what it's about, like, it's so boring. It's so gross, but there's so many other benefits of movement that we tend to overlook when all we think about is calories and shrinking our body. Like it's great for our mental health. It's great for our heart. It's great for our lungs. It's good for our joints and our stamina and our mobility and. aging and being able to just live in this body and function as well as we can for as long as possible. That's really what it's all about at the end of the day. Like people talk about getting their summer body and I'm like, no, I'm creating my 90 year old body. Like I just want to be able to get up and down off the toilet when I'm 90 and that without help. That's what I'm after. Yes. And I think for a lot of us with fibromyalgia, We hear that as a joke, right? I feel like I'm 80 years old and I'm only 40, but that's really not a joke. It's not, no, it's not. It's not a joke at all. And your experience is real and we tend to not feel awesome and not function awesome in our bodies when we have fibromyalgia. And we know that movement can help even small doses, little doses every day can help or not every day, but when you can, then it can make a big difference. And no, you may never reach the fitness of your friend. That's the same age of you or things are going to look different for you for the rest of your life because you have fibromyalgia, but this is the body that you're living in and movement can be a way that supports you feeling and functioning the best. You can with what you're living with. And that little comment that you made about this is the body that you're living in. That's one of the things that I talk about a lot about, about being honest about the body that you're living in right now, today, what that body is capable of, what its needs are, how she feels. And I think that This is part of that body image piece, where we've got to be accepting of where we are so that we can maybe get better. Yeah, I think so much of our action, it comes from like where we want to be and not accepting the body that we have. We think about, I want to be in that body. I want to feel this way. I want to look that way. And so we create our movement plan from that perspective. But that really dishonors. Who we are and what we're experiencing today. And the bottom line is, like I said before, whether you like the body you have or not, or whether you like your fibromyalgia or not, you have it and you're still worthy of compassion and kindness and respect that body is worthy of care. Right? So what does that body need today to feel its best? That's how you're going to get closer to what you want, right? Not by punishing the body you have, but really meeting it where it's at and being so kind and caring for it. So when you are doing your work with clients on body image and accepting their bodies the way they are right now today, how do you approach that? Yeah, it's quite a process, but really it starts with just being neutral, right? So many of us, like we're taught. As women, as young girls, that we have to look a certain way. There is a certain ideal that we're all taught we should be striving for. And if we fall short of that ideal, then we should not like our body or we should feel like we are not able to then go and get the job that we want or have the partner that we want or have any of the good things in life because we don't look the part. Right. So. We're taught to hate our bodies, and most of us grow up really dissatisfied with our bodies. And we think that healing our body image is about loving our bodies, and that's not where it's at. There's two parts of this. First, we think that we are going to love our body by changing it and by getting closer to that so called ideal. And I can say myself from my own experience and even the people that I've coached that I've been lots of different sizes and my thoughts about my body, my opinion of my body. didn't change. I still hated my body, even when I was at my smallest, because I still found something to criticize, right? I didn't have that basis of respect and acceptance for myself, and that didn't just magically appear when I changed my body, right? So there's no magic. thing you can do or body that you can achieve that's going to make you accept your body. And also the other part of that is like, why do we have to love our body anyways, right? That just keeps us fixated on our appearance. And that's what we're really all about. Like we're supposed to just love this container that we're in, but can we just instead neutralize that and say, I have a body. But I am not my body. I am a woman. I am a mother. I am a sister. I am a daughter. I like all these other things that make us who we are so much more than a body. I'm so thankful that I have a body because it's what carries me around and allows me to have the life that I have. But it's not an object to be admired. So let's just give up this whole fantasy of having to love our body and just be thankful that we have one. And that makes a big difference in our body image is when we can just be us in whatever body we are and know that we're worthy of having the things that we desire, the jobs that we desire, the partner we desire, and all of the things we want in life. in whatever body we show up in. I remember once when I was actually filming for the fibromyalgia documentary and thinking like anybody would when you're going to be in a movie, you're thinking about, Oh, what am I going to wear? I got to go get my hair done. I got to go get my nails done, like all the things. And then actually sitting there filming and afterwards thinking that the best part of that was that I didn't think about my body at all. That I was just able to be there and be me and the body was irrelevant and that felt like a big win. Yeah, it is a huge win, right? When you can see that, Oh, I'm making a movie. Like I'm an expert on this topic and people are going to be watching this and coming to me and getting supported by. The stuff that I teach, like that's, that's amazing. And we all have so many gifts to offer the world. And oftentimes we hold ourselves back from that because we're just so obsessed with what we look like, or we feel like we can't. I'll do that when like, I'll do that when I can fit into those pants or I'll do that when, yeah. Yeah, and the thing is, we would, if we knew that about our best friend, if we knew our best friend was feeling that way, and was putting her life on hold because of the way that she thought she looked, we'd be like, you're upset about that, go out and do that thing, like, people need to hear your message, go do it, and yet, for ourselves, we don't hold the same, like, compassion and kindness for ourselves. That's really what healing our body image is all about is like treating ourselves like our own best friend and starting to see ourselves as so much more than just this container we live in. Mm hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think part of this too is our bodies are amazing. If you. Take out the fact that you're living in that body, right? What bodies do is amazing, right? Maybe being able to accept some of that wonder and that awe over the fact that however it happens, our bodies do these things. Yeah, without us even thinking about it, right? Like your heart beating 60 times a minute, like for every day for your whole life before you were even born till the minute you die, like that's pretty cool when you really think about it. The way that we heal, you cut yourself and it heals or bones knit back together. Like this is amazing stuff. Yeah, I know. It's so cool. It is cool when you think about it. Like how lucky are we? Yeah. Yeah. And I teach my clients and exercise too. If we don't like a certain part of our body, I don't say arms. I got my arms out here. Can we just look at our arm and say, that's a human arm and think about what this arm allows me to do. Like I can give a hug to those I love. I can carry in the groceries or I can work away at my computer. Like there's so many things that having those arms allows me to do. Like my arms are amazing and life would be a whole lot different if I didn't have arms. Let's switch, reframe the thinking from. what each part or what we look like to what this part allows us to do and experience, you know, gratitude makes a big shift. Yes. Yes, it does. Yes, it does. Along these same lines, you and I were also talking about right now we're talking about exercise, but everything that we've just said about that could also apply to Pretty much anything else in the health world, right? Diet, go into your doctor. How many of us have gone to the doctor and been told all we need to do is exercise and change our diet, lose weight. So we won't go into the, like everything that's wrong with the medical system. Cause that's a different show, but you've also mentioned the term. I think, and I want to define this a little bit before we. We talk about this is you've used the term diet culture, and there may be some people listening who have not heard that and may not understand what that means. So let's do that first, but then let's talk about. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So diet culture isn't necessarily about being on a diet because most of us in this day and age know that diets don't work. And most of the people I talk to these days say, Oh, but I've never even been on a diet, so I'm not part of diet culture. Diet culture is a whole widespread system of beliefs that there's a right and a wrong way to eat, and a right and a wrong body size to be To be living in right that we should be a certain body size to be healthy and that if we aren't that size that we should do everything we can to try to attain the so called proper size through restricting food in any way, shape or form. So it may not look like actually following a diet, but it could look like not eating carbs or not eating before noon or replacing meals with shakes or managing. Portions or tracking your calories in an app or staying away from gluten, dairy, and sugar are the main big ones, right? Any way that we try to manipulate or restrict the amount of food that we're taking in is part of diet culture. And it also translates over into exercise using exercise as a means to earn or burn food is part of diet culture. Really it's any effort that we take to try to shrink our bodies to fit into this so called arbitrary ideal. Yes. And I also, as you're naming some of those things, like the gluten, dairy, and the sugar, sometimes we do those things for good, healthy, love our body reasons, but then sometimes it crosses the line. Oh, it's such a fine line. Yes. Such a fine line. Yeah, and I was one of those people for a long time. I ate clean. I was the, the queen of clean eating and I wouldn't eat any sugar and gluten dairy, all the main culprits, but I didn't have any health problems at that time or any known health problems, right? I just had read the wheat belly book and like that all these foods cause inflammation in our body. And I didn't have any evidence that there was inflammation in my body. I just read a book and decided that I should definitely go off of these things. But really what I'm thinking, what I'm. Being honest about my intentions back then, it was about being thin. I would have said I was trying to be as healthy as possible, but I was measuring my health on the bathroom scale. But yeah, it is a fine line and certainly making dietary changes can have some positive health benefits. And if you feel better by reducing certain foods, then Absolutely. You should do that. Most people, unless you're anaphylactically allergic to a substance, don't need to go off of it completely though. Most of us have a tolerable limit that, that we can manage. And we tap into that through the process of intuitive eating. If I have one piece of dessert once a week, I can probably manage that. If I eat sugar all day, I'm going to feel like crap. I know where my tolerable limit is for sugar. But in most cases, we don't have to go to extremes to feel better and have good functioning in our body. And I think too, we've touched in there a little bit on that all or nothing when it comes to health. Right. When it comes to what we eat, it's that all or nothing, even with gluten, I'll pick on gluten because it's like the thing, right? I can't have any, or it doesn't matter. I can have as much as I want. And most of us are probably in the middle, right? You're going to feel best if you have more moderate. Yes, if all I ever ate was bread and pizza and pasta, no, it not feel very good, but I don't have to go off of it completely to feel okay. But yes, there's so much of that all or nothing thinking, and there's a lot of privileged thinking too, around that we can control our health by eating. Eating a certain way and exercising right. And if we just do everything perfectly that we should be entitled to perfect health, which just, it just reeks of privilege and entitlement. And really there's so much more that makes up our health picture. So much more diet and exercise really only accounts for about 15 percent of our overall health picture. Like the social determinants of health have a much bigger impact. And that really boils down to what we have access to. Do you have access to good quality, nutritious food? Do you have access to clean water? Do you have. Steady employment. Do you live in a safe neighborhood? Are you a subject to stigma or racism or gender stigmas or all of these things that have a very serious impact on our health, right? Those social determinants matter so, so much more. And it just, it makes my skin crawl. When I see all these influencers talking about just eat this and follow my exercise plan and you'll be. Perfectly thin and healthy. And that is it just, there's so few people that even can consider accessing that in the first place. And then there's just no guarantees. Like we all here are living with fibromyalgia. Like I, I did everything perfectly for a number of years and it did not offer me any protection, the condition I live with, there's no guarantees in life. And I think also alongside this, I was looking behind your head while you were talking, your thing that says health is not a size. There is also this, oh gosh, how do I describe it? There's like this underlying current, like when you were talking about if you do all of these things, this idea that we have that if we do all these things, then I'll have good health. There's an underlying current there that says, so you're sick because you didn't. And your illness is now your fault. Uh huh. That is not right. Oh, no. Don't even get me started. And that was certainly something that I had to unpack myself. When I got my diagnosis, I realized there was still a little bit of that in there, right? There is a little bit of, oh, what did I do to cause this? And that's what we're led to believe, right? That we can achieve perfect health by doing X, Y, and Z perfectly. And yeah, the flip side of that is that And even prevent whatever might come, right? Right. Yeah. And so therefore if you get sick, what did you do? It's all your fault. And getting better is all on you too. It's all on you too. Yeah. Personal responsibility is real. Yeah. We do have some influence over our health and I won't even say that we should do whatever we can because it's a personal choice, right? Like I don't think a person is better or worse whether they prioritize health or not. If you choose not to make that, if that can't be your number one priority, that's okay. You're not a better or worse person. But yeah, like this whole laying blame and, and shame, like the shame that goes along with believing it's all your fault if you get something. And then there's weight stigma thrown into that too, right? There's a lot of, Assumptions that if you live in a larger body, then you did that to yourself and you deserve to have all of the illnesses that you may or may not ever get. Right. It's just, it's really yucky. I'd hate it. Yeah. So what do you encourage your people to measure health by? Yeah, it's so individual. If you ask every person that's listening to this podcast right now, I bet they would all have a different definition of health. Or often people's definition of health isn't even really all that clear. Like sometimes I ask people and they say, Oh, it's just like how you eat or whether you exercise or not. Like they really haven't even thought of that. So the first step is to just define what health even means to you. Like you get to decide. what your ideal picture of health looks like. And then once you've established that, I take a health at every size approach, which is another term that we haven't defined here, but health at every size basically is, it means that all humans can improve their health situation by focusing on the habits and behaviors that make them feel and function their best. That We can't reduce health to a BMI or a number on the scale and that we can't measure our health on the scale, right? We can't measure health improvements or decline in health by weight changes. So taking that health at every size approach, once I've defined what health means to me, And that's not just the physical side of things either. There's the mental health, our emotional health, our spiritual health, like that all factors in. So taking that really holistic approach, what can I do with the time and energy and resources that I have that are going to move me closer to that picture of health that I've defined for myself? Without Just worrying about weight loss without just focusing on the scale. What are some tangible actions that I can take that will move me closer? So as an example, because I'm a movement specialist, some people will say, I want to be able to get down and up off the floor. Okay. And people think, oh, I'll have to lose weight so that I can get up and down off the floor. If that weren't the way, what else could you do? Well, we could practice some mobility exercises. We could practice strengthening your legs little by little, right. And practice like getting partway down to the floor, getting back up. And then you're going to measure it by, can I get up and down off the floor? How hard is this today? And how hard is it three months from now? That's a much more tangible way to measure than just going on the scale. Right. Cause there's no guarantee that. Losing weight or gaining weight will have any bearing on how easy it is to get up and down off the floor. Measure what it is that matters to you. Maybe because we have fibromyalgia, maybe sleep is a thing. How is your sleep today? Maybe you use a tracker and keep track of your sleep. So how many hours are you getting? How much deep sleep are you getting now? Implement some of those lifestyle habits, like maybe turning off your screen before bed and practicing some meditation, using essential oils. There's lots of different strategies that one can implement to improve their sleep. And check back in, in a couple of months, like use real data, right? Take the thing that you're trying to feel better and then measure it. Yes. If you're measuring by how you're able to live the life that you want to live, then you're going to have outcomes that matter to you. Because I tell you what, in 15 years of working with people with fibromyalgia, Some of the thinnest people that I have worked with have been in the most pain. And, like my own fibromyalgia, I am heavier now than I was when I was diagnosed and I'm in remission. So, how do you want to live your life? That's what we should be working on. It's not necessarily the number on a scale or the size on the inside of your pants, right? No. The truth is people at all sizes of the spectrum have problems with their health, have pain, have issues. It is a myth that health problems are caused by being in a higher weight body. There's a core relation. I was just going to say, correlation and causation. If you're listening and you don't know what we're talking about, right? Correlation is okay. Every time there's a red ball, my body hurts. It correlates. But does the red ball cause your pain? Exactly, but that ball isn't touching me, it's just appearing. And we do often confuse correlation and causation. And I can see, make sense that there would be a correlation between weight and certain health. Issues, right? Because some of those habits, some of the underlying conditions that might cause both things, right? Like we see some of the underlying things that cause fibromyalgia and depression are similar, right? So of course they go together, but does that mean one causes the other? Not necessarily. No, there's a lot of assumption made when we say that being in a higher weight causes. whatever. Like they say that being in a higher weight causes everything, right? But we have to look at the individual habits. Is the person eating nutritious foods? Are they getting activity? Do they have any underlying risk factors or any underlying conditions that may be contributing to the weight? What we do know is that if the person is active and eats a nutritious diet, they tend to have like less risk, the same risk as a person of normal BMI. So we can't say that Causes the other and we can also say for certain that by adding in health supporting habits, you can improve your health picture regardless of what happens on the scale. And that's where looking at your numbers, right, your labs, those kinds of things to see what's actually going on inside your body can be a better picture than just looking at the shape of the outside of your body, right? And I have a good example of that, personal example of that, actually, like when I received my fibromyalgia diagnosis. Like I think many people, my doctor glossed over that whole thing. Oh, yeah, this is what you have and you have to live with it. But basically, he zeroed in on one part of my blood work. My HbA1c, which is a measure of my blood sugar over the last three months, was a little bit elevated. And he told me I had prediabetes and that it was because I had gained so much weight and that I needed to lose weight in order to improve that number. I was going to develop diabetes. But I did some research of my own on this and realized that pain has a big influence on our blood sugar. And when my pain started improving and I started being able to move more, I went back and had that number checked three months later and it had magically resolved. So much to my doctor's shock and surprise because he actually made me get back on the scale to see if I had Lost weight. I hadn't. And he's like, I have no idea. I don't know what you're doing, but keep doing it. Yeah, that's such a good example and also a ridiculous one. You know what I mean? Wow. Yeah, but all that to say there are other factors that can cause symptoms. Or problems or feelings or whatever we're experiencing besides just our weight, right? And there are things that we can do to feel better without only focusing on weight loss. Yes. Yes. Similar to your experience, I had a client who could not get her blood pressure under control and she was on multiple blood pressure medications, was trying to do all of these things. Her pain is completely out of control and as soon as her pain was managed, she didn't have blood pressure issues anymore. Yeah. Isn't that so sad? Like, this needs to be more widely known, how much pain affects our health. Yes. Yes. And those physiologic numbers that people are looking at pain, isn't something that people can objectively measure, right? Like we can measure blood pressure. We can draw blood and measure other things, but we can't objectively measure pain. And I think that is a huge piece of the problem. I don't know if we'll ever get there someday. That just seems a little too, maybe in a hundred years. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, but yeah. Awesome. Let's give people some, like some action steps here. So we've talked about a lot of things. I think a great place for you to start if you're listening is what Kim was talking about with defining what health means to you. And maybe that looks like fewer fibro flares. Maybe that looks like being able to get up off the floor. Who knows what it looks like for you, but I think that is a great place for you to start. What are some other things you'd suggest? Yeah, I love that. And if I could even be a little bit more specific, what I often have my clients do is take a piece of paper and put a put it across through the middle, say four quadrants. And then in one quadrant, you're going to have your physical health. And then in one, you'll have your spiritual health, and mental and emotional and pick one goal for each one. And then pick some actions that you can take, like really simple, small steps that you can take to feel better in each area. So, yeah, so start there. And then in terms of movement, getting more movement in your life, can you take that minimum baseline approach and think, okay, first of all, how do I want to feel? What's important to me? Like, what is if I were functioning better in this body, what would that look like? Like, what's one thing I wish I could do or that was easier? And then can you think of, say, three things that might help you move towards that goal? And can you start to add those into your life in tiny little doses, right? If we take the getting up and down off the floor example, like adding some stretching, adding some walking, adding some strength training, but can that, can you break that down into teeny tiny pieces? Can you add two minutes of stretching twice a day? Can you walk the length of your driveway once or twice a week? Can you add some squats, maybe five squats once a day or a couple of times a week? What is the minimum amount you think you can do with the time, energy and resources you have that you know won't cause you to flare up? And stick with that and then build. So small. And y'all, teeny tiny can be real teeny tiny. So that could mean that when you stand up out of your chair, you sit back down and stand up again, where you're like getting up twice, right? That's an extra almost squat you've done, right? Or walk around your kitchen island for 30, 60 seconds. Like these can be that small. Yes. anything more than what you're doing right now. A few extra steps. If you, I know you talk about using a pedometer. If you're getting 50 steps a day, can you try to get 55? Just a little bit more and see how your body responds. Yes, exactly. And remember too that for us with fibromyalgia, we don't necessarily see the impact of what we've done like immediately or even the next day. Sometimes it's two days later. So we're recording this on a Tuesday. If I do something on Tuesday, I'm actually going to be watching how I feel on Thursday. So not Tuesday, not Wednesday, but Thursday, so don't judge too quick. Don't increase too quick. Give your body a chance to show you how she feels with that. And if we could share one more tip, since we talked about body image too, you reframe your thinking and like, how would I talk to myself? How would I talk about this body? If I were my own best friend or maybe not even best friend, but just friend. If I were talking to myself, like I would talk to anybody else. What's a way that I can show respect and kindness and gratitude for my body today? And I think most of us talk to ourselves in a way that we wouldn't even talk to a stranger on the street. Like we would be like, Oh, I would never be that rude. I'd never be that mean, but we're that mean to us ourselves. So even if, like you said, even if you can't talk to yourself or think about yourself, the way that you would talk or think about your best friend, what about if it was just a stranger on the street, somebody you don't even know. And just catch that mean girl voice when it pops up. That was not very nice. And reframe it. Oh my gosh. I can't believe that your arms are so jiggly. Okay. No, not going to talk about myself that way. I'm so thankful that I have arms and that they allow me to fill in the blank. I love that. And we haven't talked about it yet, but you've got a free mini course that kind of addresses some of this, right? Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I have a free five day mini course called how to feel great in and about your body no matter what the scale says. And it addresses all of these different topics where we talk about how to increase your motivation for movement, how to eat well without being obsessed with calories and macros and all of the things, how to chase health without obsessing over the scale, how to cope with emotional eating. And what's the fifth topic? Oh, it's the body image. I mean, it's my own course. It's all about meeting yourself with kindness and respect and talking to yourself in that way that you would talk to anybody else. Yeah. So I'll give you the link so you can put that in your show notes. It's on my website. So if you're listening and you want to get that link, just go to today's show notes, it's fibromyalgia podcast. com slash one 37. And we'll have all those links out there. So the other question I wanted to ask you with all of this is, when is it a good idea to work with somebody on this stuff? Because you've got your free course, we've given people some ideas, but I know as a coach that at a certain point, like some of these things are really hard to do on your own. So when would you suggest, or what are the circumstances that you might say, Hey, you might actually. Yeah. Do better working with somebody. If you're facing these situations, I like, like you and I'm a big proponent of coaching, obviously, because we are coaches and we've worked with coaches for a long time. There's a point where you can gain a lot of knowledge, do a lot of reading, do a lot of listening to podcasts and so much. And yet when you try to apply it to your life, it just doesn't take hold and you don't start seeing the results that you want to see. That's your first clue. I have learned a lot, but nothing's changing. Right. And there's a couple of other reasons, like for my work specifically, if you. Want to get moving more and you have no idea how, right, how to do that safely or what types of movements are going to bring you closer to the goals that you've decided are important to you, then working with a movement specialist can be really helpful, right? Especially someone who understands what it's like to live with chronic pain and who's going to take that minimum baseline approach and really go slowly and educate you along the way around what's good for you and your body and what you're dealing with. And when it comes to body image, like I think everybody could benefit from body image coaching. Like we, it's just in all of us, we have all internalized these beliefs that our body is just not good enough and that we cannot have the life we want until we look a certain way. And often we don't realize just how deeply entrenched that is until we really sit and look at it. But if you find that you're putting your life on hold, you're not doing the things that you want to do because of how you feel about your body, or you're worried about passing that on to the next generation, you want to make sure that you raise your kids feeling differently than you have, it's really important to do your own work first, right? You cannot teach your children to have a healthy body image or a good relationship with food and exercise if you're sick. Still so stuck in diet culture yourself. So those are some good reasons why one might wanna hire a coach there. There's so many. Yeah, no, I, I think that's really helpful. The other thing I was thinking of as we were talking about what does health mean, setting some goals, is that sometimes there's some. more corrective things that might need to be done. And so when would like working with you be a good choice versus maybe I actually need to go see a physical therapist because there's some correction that needs to be made. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So a physical therapist. This will help you if you have an injury or you think you might have an injury that needs to be diagnosed and they can do certain treatments like taping and massage and laser and show you corrective exercises for that. I work very closely with some physical therapists where they get their intensive treatment with the physical therapist, but then after when they're looking to build more strength and more muscle. So in prevent further injury or preventing a relapse, that's where having a movement specialist can be really helpful to teach you how to continue to support your body so that you don't end up in that situation again. That's perfect. That's perfect. I know I had a knee injury that I was seeing, still seeing a physical therapist for trying to figure out like exactly where the problem is. And you don't want to take those injuries and just go to the gym. No, not without knowing what's going on. And I don't want to train you until I know what's going on either. Until I know what kind of problem you have with your knee. I want to get too close with that and risk doing further damage. So the physical therapist is the right person to start with and get some healing. underway and then I'll support you to continue that healing. And a great place to start if you're not sure is to just have that evaluation, right? Either see your doctor or get a referral to a physical therapist, get the check out, get the A OK, that it's all right to do whatever activities. Yeah. And ask if there's any restrictions, right? In most cases, you can begin an exercise program no matter what injury or condition you have. There just might be some modifications and restrictions that we have to work around, and that's totally fine. It's finding that person that knows how to work with that and support you to continue to move forward even with. What you're living with. Perfect. Perfect. So as we wrap up, I want to come back to your story. I would love for you to share with people like, where are you at today? How are you doing today? Because I think it is such an inspiration just in six months, you've. Come so far. And a lot of that has to do with your own background and training, knowing how to listen to your body. Like all of those things that most of us did not have at the beginning, but share a little bit about where you're at now. I'm feeling pretty good. I want to touch wood when I say. I'm still a little cautiously optimistic, but I'm feeling really good. Last fall, I was feeling really crappy. Honestly, it was, I had to step away from my job. I was feeling so poorly all the time. But since I had a flare right after New Year's, a pretty bad one, and that was the last one till May of this year. So I, was five months without flares. I thought to say I was pain free, but without significant flares. So that to me is a real win, right? I really did not expect to be feeling as well as I'm feeling this early. I'd like to be sleeping better. That's still the big thing that I'm trying to figure out little by little, but at least the pain is gone. It's so much more manageable. So that's awesome. That's awesome. Congratulations on that. That's something to be proud of doing the work that you did to get there, right? Even if that work was resting, I think that's sometimes the hardest work. It was the hardest work. Like, yeah. And that's so, it's so counterintuitive, right? Like we're often taught to do something to help yourself feel better. And in my case, it was do nothing. Yeah. Yeah. And doing nothing really helped. And now I do less than I used to do. I'm working on becoming more okay with that, right? That it's okay to do less. I don't have to be superwoman. And by doing less, I'm able to do the things that really matter to me. better and then still have energy to heal and feel good. Yeah. I love it. I love it. So for the people listening, I would love for you, Kim, just to like the person who is hearing our conversation here, who's maybe struggling with, With being entrenched in diet culture or struggling with their body image or all or nothing thinking or all of those things that we talked about, I would love for you just to speak to her and share from your heart. I guess the number one thing I would want this person to know is that you're enough. You're so much more than your body. You are. Yeah, your body does not define you, the appearance of your body, what your body can do. You are so much more than that. And you're worthy of feeling good. And you're worthy of being treated with kindness and respect, even from yourself. And you can. Feel better. You can feel better, but it starts by meeting yourself where you're at and being compassionate and going one step at a time, taking it slow and being okay with just little bits that add up to a lot. Yeah. I agree wholeheartedly. So thank you so much for being here, Kim. Where can people find you? I know your podcast, Power in Motion podcast. You can find that pretty much wherever you can find podcasts. So look that up. She's got a great show. Where else can people find you? Yeah, I'm on all the social media platforms at Radiant Vitality Wellness. Instagram, Facebook, a little bit on TikTok and Pinterest as well. And then my website is radiantvitality. ca Which means you're in Canada. It does. Yeah. I was like, Oh, Hey, she's in Canada. That's awesome. All right. Thank you again so much, Kim, for sharing your story and your area of expertise. And I think this is such a needed message because we get inundated with all of the, you're not enough messages and y'all. You are enough so much. So enough. Yeah. Yes. Thank you so much for having me, Tammy. It's really an honor to be here today. And that wraps up my interview with Kim Hegel, size inclusive fitness specialist, non diet nutritionist and certified health and life coach specializing in body image. Kim is also the host of the power in motion podcast. So if you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to check out her show. What she teaches is such a great addition to what you learned from me here. We'll have a link to her podcast in today's show notes. Just go to fibromyalgia podcast. com slash one 35. We will also have a link to Kim's free five day mini course, how to feel great In and about your body, no matter what the scale says, as Kim says in this episode, working with someone can be particularly helpful if you're working on your body image. So if your image of yourself is holding you back, then I encourage you to at least start with Kim's mini course, but consider getting her professional help. Again, just go to fibromyalgia podcast. com slash one 37 to get the link to sign up for her course. And if it's your fibromyalgia that's getting in the way, if you're looking for how you can improve your fibromyalgia symptoms, make sure you've downloaded free copies of my books and consider scheduling a consultation with one of my students or coaches. You may also want to consider joining our next certified fibromyalgia advisor course. class. These classes begin every spring and every fall and graduates of the advisor class are able to improve their fibromyalgia symptoms by about 50 percent on average in just three months. We'll have a link in today's show notes where you can get those books and learn more about scheduling with a coach or joining our next class. Now, as Kim and I were talking, I thought of a few other episodes that could be helpful for you. If you'd like to dig deeper into some of these topics, we discussed how exercise quote unquote is actually determined by what your body thinks it is and not what you think it is. And one of the tools that I have found most helpful for this in a fibro body is the Apple watch app, gentler streak. You can learn more about how I use this app in my interview with the creators of the app in episode 121, a gentler way to exercise with fibromyalgia with Katerina Lotridge. Now this app I have found to be so much more helpful than all the other fitness apps out there because it is Gentler. It's right there in the name, but it's a lot more fibro friendly. And if you've tried other fitness apps and they've just pushed you too hard, I highly encourage you to check out this episode and check out that app. There's even a free code where you can get a much longer free trial of the app than you can get if you just go to your app store. Kim also mentioned just as an idea, improving sleep as a possible goal as you're thinking about what health means to you. And if that sounds good, you might want to check out episodes 95 and 96 for some tips and information on improving sleep and specifically fibromyalgia sleep. We also discussed tracking. Things like steps, pain level, and other metrics besides the number on the scale. And I do have some tracking forms that I use with my clients that I've made available to listeners of this podcast. If you'd like to download those tracking forms to measure some of those things, you'll find a link where you can download them in today's show notes. Just go to fibromyalgia podcast. com slash one 37 and look for where you can download those. free tracking tools. And the last, if you want to explore an alternative to that all or nothing thinking that we discuss today, Kim, Kim calls it, I love it. Kim calls it all or something. I usually say something is better than nothing, but go check out episode 74. I actually do talk about this idea of something being better than nothing and how that can be. Can look in your fibro life. So go check that out in episode 74. And now I've got this week's listener shout out for you. This is from a listener on Spotify who was talking about episode 135, living your best life with fibromyalgia. With Dr. Robin Faff. And this listener says, this was the first time I've reached out regarding fibromyalgia and I resonated more than I thought. I felt like I was the only person going through this. Thank you. And thank you so much for your comment there on Spotify. If all I ever do is make you feel less alone, then I consider it a win. That's my goal here is to encourage you to give you some hope. And hopefully you got that in today's episode, hearing Kim's story, uh, her fibromyalgia story, as well as her area of expertise. You know, Can feel better. Kim said that herself. You can feel better, whether it's feeling better in the body that you're living in right now today, whether that's improving your fibromyalgia, your pain, your fatigue, or just feeling better about the body that you're living in right now today. Maybe that's feeling better from a diet or fitness. perspective, meaning eating better foods, moving your body in a way that feels good. Um, it does not have to be torture. It does not have to have all the rules. It can feel good and you can feel better. So I hope you'll find encouragement in our conversation today and go to today's show. show notes to check out all those other episodes that I mentioned. Again, it's fibromyalgia podcast. com slash one 35. And we'll see you back here next time. And that wraps up another episode of the fibromyalgia podcast. I'm your coach, Tammy Stackelhaus. For daily doses of hope, inspiration, and practical advice. Come hang out with me on Facebook, visit facebook. com slash fibro coach to find my personal coaching page and connect with me directly to find the show notes, additional resources, or to schedule a consultation with me or one of my coaches, visit fibromyalgia podcast. com.